re_alignment | video;

[It was almost odd to see such a distinctly cybertronian design. Mostly because the first time he'd seen Starscream after being thawed was his Earth altmode, and that seemed to hold here... and this one was quite a but more similar than the other two.

It doesn't throw him off or distract him for more than a few seconds, however.]

Unless he's arrived in the last few days, there isn't any Bumblebee present in this dimension currently.

[Then he pauses, a slight frown on his faceplates as he considers what Starscream just said. That does sound like---]

Ah... I believe the Wheeljack from your reality is here, though. He did mention that this Cybertron was remarkably similar to the one he'd come from.

[Among other things.]

Alright, thank you. [The thanks is reflexive, Jetfire's the first to offer information without questioning, it's something he wants to encourage.

And then he doubletakes, at the feed's voice and manner, and tries to cover it up immediately with;]

Oh, Wheeljack's here? Good. [It's genuine enthusiasm, at least--one of the few Autobots who backed him initially.]

--This dimension's just full of surprises.

[He hardly needs to be encouraged to ~~be polite~~ offer what seems to be reasonably harmless information without having it dragged out of him. The thanks, considering who just gave it, as well as the brief - if covered for - stare, has Jetfire tilting his helm.

Not so much in question, as curiosity, but he won't pull that up yet... Not enough to build any sort of question around.]

The evidence seem to connect to that conclusion, yes. You were working those you mentioned in an attempt to create a government, correct?

[And somehow, he doesn't think that last comment precisely has to do with the presence of the Wheeljack this Starscream knows. Jetfire nods and crosses his arms.]

Depending on what sort of surprises you mean, statistically, by the Lambda pulling even on a small cross-section of a nearly infinite number of possible realities... that would be the end result, yes.

[There might have been a smile, unless Jetfire was perfectly serious here... Hard to tell, since he at least seemed sincere enough in his conclusion.]

[This universe is definitely hazardous to his mental health, but he's not going to complain openly about it. Yet.]

Yes, that's correct. [Wheeljack saving his aft again, apparently.] Is there anything you can tell me about Liege Maximo?

[Give it some time, and he'll probably end up complaining about it.]

Liege? [He hums, softly, optics dimming slightly. He hasn't interacted with the mech beyond that initial meeting in the Junk Pile, but given how that went, and the message he'd relayed after the attack... and the request me made during it...]

Scientist. Interested in how things, as well as individuals works, not just physically but mentally as well. Willing to go to some lengths scientific-wise that... ah, might be too far.

[He'd seen that request, and while they were "just" monsters, that didn't mean they didn't possess basic sensory arrays and thus capabilities to feel and process sensory input. He'd wanted them alive.]

I can't say much more, as I haven't talked much with him.

[And he was still interested in the mech and wanted to work with him... But, he was realizing that where Liege might want to go would be "too far" in Jetfire's opinion.

He'd have to wait and see.]

Perfect.

[aware he has to pick his way carefully, here.] "Too far" is pretty subjective.

That's good to know, though.

Indeed it is. [A small shrug as he looks away from the screen, more thoughtful than not.]

But I usually consider experimenting on anything still alive and aware and in possiession of either a possible or established sensory array as "too far".

[No matter the knowledge that might be gotten from it. He'd already had his brief flirtation with ethically and morally dubious science in the past.]

[a slow spreading smile--not a glorying one, the kind that looks self satisfied. A confirmation of correctness.] Terrible things happen.

Is this a bad time to mention he's apparently my patron?

Furthering of knowledge or not, the results don't justify the means.

[Jetfire shakes his helm, his expression dry.]

Hardly. He's mine as well, currently.

[The modifier is key, here. Jetfire's somewhat aware he might have to make a choice, if it comes to it. Currently, none is needed.]

Ever? [his tone is slipping towards coltish, debate for debate's sake is something he enjoys, even if it's probably not recommended.]

Hm. [Well.] I'm on my way to the Temple, now. [whether that's a warning or an invitation, he's not saying.]

Not really, no. [Jetfire takes no obvious note of the tone (even if he's heard it, and knows it well), the frown soft and thoughtful. He's had similar discussions, many times. Some of them with his own Starscream.]

Establishing an exception means you've already laid the groundwork for further exceptions, the critera for what becomes "acceptable" to make an exception probably widening each time, until you're operating under a science... and with scientists, with no regard for the life, well-being or rights of not just their subjects, but the populace they're supposedly servicing.

[He pauses, frown deepening.]

Scientific research for the research and the results in themselves are all well and good, until you start infringing on others to gain the results you want. [Does this sound familiar, perhaps? And what Jetfire isn't going to mention unless it's actually necessary, is that he, at one point, didn't consider this point of view necessary.

And then he changed his mind.]

I would hardly stop you.

The slippery slope argument, right? So are you saying mechs naturally tend towards the limits of what's permissible, with a view to becoming more and more morally "bad" over time? [as he asks, he steps over the outcropping and transforms, taking off towards the Temple, adding] Because if it's only a blanket law forbidding exceptions that keeps scientists from vivisection, we're all in trouble.

[he broadcasts a couple minutes of thoughtful flying silence, and then] So. Hypothetically. Are all experimental medical procedures without consent unethical?

Not necessarily, but if you're laid towards not caring, or can be convinced... or even decide it might be worth it, even just this once, further allowances... or a culture or attitude promoting would just make it easier to not care about further exceptions or infringements.

[Jetfire shrugs, the frown smoothing out for a wry, nearly amused expression.]

Hardly. Those who really want to wouldn't let laws stop them, but they do foster a general culture of what's acceptable.

[Is that really a hypothetical? Because he doesn't think so. Jetfire had looked away and gone back to studying a rock while the feed ran silent, then put it down and looked back as he spoke.] Hypothetical or not, yes. Emergency procedures might be necessary, but I don't think your hypothetical included that.

[a silence, reminding himself it's probably better not to get into the nitty gritty of this too much--first impressions are kind of important, and he keeps somehow wrecking his. Mysteriously. He cuts tight around a mountain and then under another outcropping as he ponders a response.]

Scientific discovery is morally neutral; value judgments are subjective - there aren't always easy answers. But you know, if your world is anything like mine--the war of freedom versus security is one of those things.

What would you say to planting killchips in mechs without their consent--if it would preserve order, and keep another war from breaking out? That would potentially save millions of Cybertronian lives.

Wait, don't answer, yet. Should I say mechs? It's actually Decepticons. Better, or worse?

What would you say if I said I agreed with it?

[You know, considering you said "war" there, that tells him everything. It doesn't need to be a war.] Only neutral until it's applied in practice, affecting your surroundings. Scientific theory is morally neutral, and only if the scientist can keep their own subjective judgement from influencing the hypothesis as well as the formulation of theory itself... [hence, completely impossible and Jetfire is aware of it] anything after that is not, by defintion, morally neutral.

[And then he falls silent for over a klik, the earlier frown reappearing, but the response, when it comes, is still measured.]

Neither. Decepticons or not, it's still not right.

[Another pause.]

What answer or reaction are you after, Starscream? [He's curious, but there's a definite thread of tightness in his voice... but probably not for the reason you might think.]

If planting such chips in mechs on any side of the war would be necessary to maintain "peace" and "order", then the war isn't over, and it's being perpetuated; the pattern held, not aborted. Living under threat of violence or death... or threat of violent death if certain parameters aren't fulfilled breeds resistance.

[This isn't just basic theory, but he knows it in practice. Considering it's basically happened twice in his own reality. Labour camps for Autobots when Megatron (briefly) won the war, anyone?]

"Necessary" or not does not make such a practice, or the action of planting those chips themselves right. They're not. Necessity, objective or subjective, has no bearing on the moral or ethical reality of the situation.

[Starscream transforms and lands hard outside the temple, poised for a moment for potential attack (it's possible, it's always possible. He's been in war too long to ever relax instantly in a new environment)]

It's nice to have a discussion with someone who can string logic together, that's all I want. [gently implying he spends a lot of time debating with peons. He glances around, still without turning off his video, taking an impressed silence to stare up at the temple. Then, after a brief mulling over.] Jetfire, you may be an absolutist, but at least you're consistent.

[More seriously, and quietly.] And you don't need to tell me living poorly breeds resistance. [That was, after all, the Decepticons' original stance.] But I know how Decepticons think and what they respect. There's not going to be any holding hands and peace songs.

[He waits until Starscream's landed and, well... settled. But there's not going to be an attack here, even less from Jetfire. Who, being that he hadn't been on the ground floor, simply waited for Starscream to arrive before he left from the nearest opening to land in front of the temple and a bit away from Starscream himself.

The biggest difference between this Jetfire and the one native to Starscream's (besides the difference in design) was that this one? Is taller.]

I'm scientist, Starscream. If I wasn't consistent, any results would be useless. [A pause as he crossed his arms, helm tilted.] And as far as I've seen, no matter the faction... We're all absolutists.

[Some of us are just less terrible than the others.]

And while I obviously have no idea how the Decepticons formed where you're from, or for what reason [he's being concentious here, he could extrapolate after all], I know perfectly well how it happened where I'm from, and what they stand for...

[Jetfire looks away briefly, following the view being on top of the mountain Liege's temple is provides. He knows, because he was there, listened, and, briefly, agreed. Besides the other more personal reason.]

If the method chosen was to impant kill-switch chips, then neither side obviously believes in even trying for a more moderate approach since you agree that was a suitable response.

[Starscream leans against the nearest outcropping carefully, the better to keep his whole attention on Jetfire as he approaches, and snerks.] So because I believe it, it's wrong. You don't even know me. That's hardly what I'd call a scientific approach, Jetfire.

[it's spooky, to see him like this. It feels almost like a dream, abruptly kidnapped and thrust into a strange universe to talk to someone he hasn't seen in a long, long time.]

Like I said. I believe it was a suitable response because I don't think there is another way to foster peace, at least not yet. Certain Decepticons are in it for sadism's sake, and there's no reasoning with that. Some of them just need time to recalibrate old grudges, but if the non-aligned Cybertronians--or the Autobots--get it into their heads that Decepticons are dangerous to them, fear pretty quickly reroutes into hate, which reroutes into violence--re-ignition of the war, path two. Autobots aren't exactly free of vice, either, and a lot of them are angry about their brothers in arms getting fragged.

So, essentially, tensions are high everywhere. Without a system of even temporary controls, the whole thing is going to destabilize very quickly, and we'll never get the chance we have right now again.

Wouldn't that depend on what, exactly, you're supposed to be wrong about? The only thing we've discussed presently has been scientific theory, application and discovery and you asking me whether kill-switch chips implanted in somebody is right or wrong.

[Turning back from the view, Jetfire shook his helm.]

In the case of science, that, like logic, can only stay morally, ethically and value neutral until application, as to make discoveries and get results, you need to affect your surroundings somehow.

[He slowly walked closer, because it was frankly kind of... startling to be talking to a Starscream who more or less - disregarding the differen altmode - looked like his own.]

And if I actually believed nothing mattered in regards to science and its ethical impact until applied, I... [He frowned, and stopped still quite a few steps away.] might well still be a Decepticon.

[Not what you were expecting to hear, perhaps?]

As for the latter... Necessary or not, even if your explanation makes the background slightly clearer, it still isn't right.

[Necessity has nothing to do with right or wrong, after all. Jetfire tilted his helm slightly, comparing the differences in the clearly cybertronian frame of this Starscream to the one the Starscream he knew had had back before Earth, mostly out of curiosity.]

Or were you thinking of something else?

[Honest curiosity, because besides disputing Starscream's claim of scientific discovery being morally neutral... Well, he hadn't said he was wrong (yet, perhaps).]

[he wants to say "everything", but he knows his reaction is interpreted far more from emotional circuits than logical ones. His frown at the "might well still be a Decepticon" part is abrupt and genuine] Autobots have committed atrocities. That's what war does to people, no matter what symbol they rally around. [Ambiguity, after all, was the light in which his old Cybertron was flourishing.] I disagree.

[and he won't go further into it, because he doesn't want to risk any more alienation than he already has.]

Listen. Jetfire. I need your help. If you could--show me around. [it is so hard for his ego to put himself here, it really is]

[It might be telling (if thought processes were public to all involved in the conversation) that what Jetfire immediately thinks of at the "accusation" was his and Omega Supreme's decision to go with breaking up the mission and focus on one part... But that's it. He frowns, optics dimming slightly.]

I'm not going to claim to know what the Autobots of your dimension have done, Starscream, but in mine? Not really.

[He then just straightens up, shifting his shoulders and, while turning half towards the nearest entrance of this part of the temple, automatically angling his wings down. He doesn't need to, really; the temple is built of and for a mech at least 20 feet taller than he is, but it's automatic.]

In the temple, or the Haven? [He turns back towards Starscream again, shaking his helm.] There's not much yet in either place, truly, though I'd advice caution with the fractal corridors... you do know where your room is in there?

[he shoots a cynical look in Jetfire's direction re: Autobots being made of goodness and light.] I'll believe that when I see it. [Can't shut down his voicebox quick enough, sometimes, no matter the consequences.]

"Not much yet"? You mean building wise, or hazard wise? [he moves to follow, drawing short and looking up at Jetfire as the mech stands almost close enough to reach out and touch--an instinctive Decepticon show of lack-of-fear, something that is important to display, even if not to actually feel--Starscream is pretty good at bluffing when he has to.]

No idea. I didn't even know I got a room. [he may have blanked the Acolyte initially...a lot.]

[The response is a faint twist of Jetfire's lips; not quite able to keep the amusement hidden enough.]

You could always mention it to my... er, the Starscream from my reality, as he's here as well. You look... well, he's still in an altmode derived from Earth, but your colouration match. I'm sure he'd go on at length about our soft-sparked behaviours.

[If Jetfire recognized the behaviour or not, he didn't really react except to turn around, briefly - automatically, even - reaching out a hand to rest it on Starscream's shoulder and gently pressing in the direction they were facing.

Not so much pushing as guiding, and completely automatic, as he dropped his hand right after.]

Both, really. The Haven [a gesture behind them to indicate more than just Liege's temple] with the... ah, temples of our hosts is all the finished buildings there are... Hazard-wise...

[A shrug as they passed through the doorway, his expression somewhat distant.]

We had an attack a bit ago, beings unmarked and immediately hostile upon landing... There was some indications attacks such as these have happened before, and then there's the added possible hazards of a young Cybertron...

You forget who you're talking to. I know what Starscreams do best, and it isn't giving unbiased accounts. [it feels strange to diss himself in any capacity, and not very pleasant, but this Starscream is older and wiser and fancies that he understands his own shortcomings a little better than he used to.]

...Anyway, he calls me soft.

[he looks attentive, and gives an understanding nod about the "young Cybertron" part] Makes sense. Practically everything outside Iacon was a hazard, back home. [His optics blazed briefly as he took in the interior of the temple's entrance, venting quietly. Ruminating mentally over that touch and what it could mean--for the other Starscream, anyway.]

I owe you. For your help.

No, if anything, he'll exaggerate how utterly pathetic we are... That doesn't mean he'll necessarily lie about it.

[Really, "non-biased account" he would have thought to be a given and thus accounted for when asking any questions of Starscream. He's used to "translate" and thus doesn't really factor that part in.]

Doesn't surprise me. [Jetfire shakes his helm, because it really doesn't. Of course Starscream would prefer to see himself as the "best one" even if that wasn't something that could be reliably measured.]

I heard from Wheeljack what happened... [he frowns, and then shakes his helm again. Something still feels odd about that whole thing, but maybe it's merely what Wheeljack described had happened with the Matrix.

And the touch was partly because of a parallell familiarity... as well as Jetfire simply being somewhat physical.]

Owe me? [He pauses, infinitesmally, glancing down at Starscream before continuing to walk.] For this? Hardly.

[He wouldn't be considered "owed" for bigger, more substantial things, so this? Not really.]

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